420/44 DB Owners Club

Is every battery wired as the house?

I thought only 1 side was wired to the house and the generator was wired to the other bank so if you ran down the house batteries you could still start the generator or use the emergency start to start the other engine.

Also I don't think the bow thruster battery is wired into anything else.

I wonder if you could carry a set of jumper cables and use the thruster batteries to jump the other banks.

I'm new to the 44db so forgive my potential ignorance.

HomePort said:

Has anyone added a bilge heater to their 420 or 44DB?

I'm thinking about doing so.

Anything thoughts?

Thanks in advance for your help.

mp

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I'm going to install mine pretty soon. I bought them earlier, but ran out of time for projects. If you are in the process of buying, don't get model 40. They're too big, IMO. I had to send mine back and get the smaller size. The one they sell for generator is nice and small, so no issues there. Depending on how you're planning to use them, you might want to think about a timer.

JNMNL52 said:

I ran this by my dealership who passed it to Searay. The answer was the small salon air vent should be attached to the forward AC system as the parts manual depicts. The factory did not have a reasonable answer as to why this vent was taped off and blocked at the plenum.

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Thanks for getting back on this. I'm sure SR doesn't have answers for a lot of stuff they do and don't. The more I get myself involved in to fixing stuff the more I'm saying to myself "...you've got to be kidding me, what the hell were they thinking?...."

bjurkovski said:

Is every battery wired as the house?

I thought only 1 side was wired to the house and the generator was wired to the other bank so if you ran down the house batteries you could still start the generator or use the emergency start to start the other engine.

Also I don't think the bow thruster battery is wired into anything else.

I wonder if you could carry a set of jumper cables and use the thruster batteries to jump the other banks.

I'm new to the 44db so forgive my potential ignorance.

Click to expand...

Based on SR explanation about my boat all four batteries are wired to feed the house. There's no dedicated started battery. I can confirm that this is valid. As for BT, yes it's stand alone and doesn't feed anything else, but don't forget that it's wired for 24VDC, so before jumping make sure to disconnect the two batteries that are wired in series.

Alex F said:

Based on SR explanation about my boat all four batteries are wired to feed the house. There's no dedicated started battery. I can confirm that this is valid. As for BT, yes it's stand alone and doesn't feed anything else, but don't forget that it's wired for 24VDC, so before jumping make sure to disconnect the two batteries that are wired in series.

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Something still isn’t quite making sense for me and maybe the wiring is a little different between the model years.

I have to engage the starboard battery solenoid to activate my 12v systems.

When I have both solenoids and hit the voltage test switch I get two different voltages and I assume one from each battery bank.

If both banks were tied together for the house circuit I should get the same voltage when both solenoids are engaged.

Based on my observations it seems that the house circuit runs off the starboard bank and the electronics (i.e. Radio, Chart plotter, Radio, etc.) run off the port as those systems don’t seem to turn on until that solenoid is engaged.

I might be confusing port with starboard because I can remember if the switches are reversed when facing the back of the boat but I’ll have to confirm my observations over the weekend while I’m out and about.

On my 2007 the port bank was for the house and the starboard bank was only used to serve the bridge/navigation.

The thinking (I'm guessing) is to isolate the house loads on to one bank so if it dies, you can always use the other, in this case starboard, bank to start the starboard engine. Then you can use the "emergency start" switch at the helm--- which bridges the two banks together--- to start the other engine and/or the generator. Save your jumper cables! All you need is the emergency start switch.

And as Alex said, be very careful messing with the BT batteries since they are wired in series to delver 24v. That can come in handy if you want to install a 24v inverter, but that's another whole discussion!

If you turn off your port solenoid you will notice that almost all of your house loads will go dead. At least that's true for the 2007 I had, your results may vary.

Personally, I'd rather see a true house bank (maybe two 8Ds) and dedicated starting batteries for each engine plus the genny, but I understand that you can't just load the boat down with batteries, so the way they do it is a reasonable compromise. It seems that with two group 31s as the house bank that the electrical engineers figured that you would just run the genny when you're off shore power, as these two batteries will not last too long (I experienced 24 hours at most) running the house.

420/44DBers---

I've been reading back over this thread and I wanted to chime in on the Air Conditioning issues and let you know what I did on my 2007 44DB to attempt to rectify these issues.

First of all, there should be a bigger unit in the salon... shoulda, woulda, coulda, not gonna happen. But also notice that they put the main return right under the TV/entertainment unit which is as close to the salon door as humanly possible. Leaving this door open will KILL YOU! My AC would ice up within minutes with that door open. My kids/crew got used to my constant "close the door!" and "in or out!" chants. But another issue is that the AC unit also draws humid/outside air very easily through the little locker that is just outside the salon door in the cockpit. Take all the crap out of that locker and take a look... that locker is loosely defined by starboard panels with fairly large gaps that allow outside air to be sucked right into that already undersized AC unit.

Recommendation 1: seal the cockpit locker to not allow outside air to get to the salon AC unit. Use vent tape or similar, I also used some of that thermal insulation stuff (fancy name for bubble wrap) in some of the bigger gaps.
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Next we move on to the register above the TV in the salon. On my boat there were two main problems with this puppy. First is that the air comes into this register from the bottom at a 90 degree angle to where it is supposed to go... it just swirls around in there until it leaks out through the front openings facing the salon. I may be overstating this somewhat, but to me the air should be better directed towards it's destination rather than just swirling around in a register on the hopes that some leaks out into the salon. What I did here was to install a curved panel (fashioned out of thin black plastic) that curves the air coming form the ductwork gently but directly towards the salon. Also, when futzing with this register, I noticed that the inlet to the register was a 4" oval opening but the duct feeding it was 7" round. From a 7" round duct to a 4" oval was something like a 63% reduction in air flow. That's partially why my unit froze up so easily. So I cut that opening to be a 7" oval opening (it's actually bigger across than 7" but is has the same cross section as a 7" round duct). This, plus my "redirector" improved airflow from this register significantly. So that is:

Recommendation 2: Ensure salon register airflow is optimized. Full disclosure: I only did all this nonsense when I had that entertainment center completely removed to run water and electric lines to the bridge for A/C up there (another whole discussion). Not sure I would go to all this truoble just to improve air flow, but it did make a huge difference... your call!
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Then we have the fact that the salon on the 420/44DB is a green house. Yes, those big windows are awesome for a whole lot of reasons, but they let in a ton of light/heat/energy. So to combat this, I had removable 95% pfifertex(sp?) black out screens made for the side windows. Once I fixed all the other issues, I only had to use these on days above 95 degrees, so this may be something you wait on to see if it is needed. I also had a 100% (sunbrella) front window shade made to match the rest of the canvas on the boat. I would use this from May-September. It also served a privacy role since my boat was docked bow in. But let's call that:

Recommendation 3: Consider removable black out shades for side windows and/or a full front window shade.
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So now we move to the front of the house where that A/C is quite adequately sized and often idles along while the salon unit is struggling. And yes, at least on my boat, the front unit also fed that small register in the salon by the dinette. So the think here is let's get more of that yummy cold air from that front unit into the salon... how do we do this you ask? Well what I did was add close-able registers to the two stateroom unit so they could be closed (or partially closed) to force more air to the salon. I forget where I got them, but they were custom made out of the brushed nickel and not only worked great, but were a big aesthetic improvement over the "let's just cut some holes" original registers. One last thing was that the two heads on my boat were f-f-f-f-freezing most of the time so I made strips of black starboard that I used to regulate the airflow in the heads. It may sound hokey, but it looked and worked great. So all of this sums up to:

Recommendation 4: Direct more front A/C flow to the salon register
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After I did all of these things I was finally happy with the performance of the A/C.

Then I sold the boat.

Lol.

Converse48 said:

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After I did all of these things I was finally happy with the performance of the A/C.

Then I sold the boat.

Lol.

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LOL!

Gotta love that one!

Doug

Converse48 said:

On my 2007 the port bank was for the house and the starboard bank was only used to serve the bridge/navigation.

The thinking (I'm guessing) is to isolate the house loads on to one bank so if it dies, you can always use the other, in this case starboard, bank to start the starboard engine. Then you can use the "emergency start" switch at the helm--- which bridges the two banks together--- to start the other engine and/or the generator. Save your jumper cables! All you need is the emergency start switch.

And as Alex said, be very careful messing with the BT batteries since they are wired in series to delver 24v. That can come in handy if you want to install a 24v inverter, but that's another whole discussion!

If you turn off your port solenoid you will notice that almost all of your house loads will go dead. At least that's true for the 2007 I had, your results may vary.

Personally, I'd rather see a true house bank (maybe two 8Ds) and dedicated starting batteries for each engine plus the genny, but I understand that you can't just load the boat down with batteries, so the way they do it is a reasonable compromise. It seems that with two group 31s as the house bank that the electrical engineers figured that you would just run the genny when you're off shore power, as these two batteries will not last too long (I experienced 24 hours at most) running the house.

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Tim,

I would assume that both models would be wired in similar fashion and maybe they are. My port bank seamed to be the primary for the house while stbd side takes care of the small stuff. Usually I do see stbd side having more juice remaining while port bank is dropping the voltage after several hours. Just like you I thought that I can rely on the stbd side bank if needed. So, here's an interesting scenario that took place recently.

I'm anchored for several days and my port side bank is going bad (this is an older set). I go to start my genny and not a chance. I flip the switch to check the stbd side voltage, it shows also under 11v. I go to use the emergency switch hoping for both banks to get the genny going and not a chance. This made no sense to me as my stbd bank is only 2 yrs old and it shouldn't loose the juice so badly. I didn't wait too long and just jumped the BT battery (after disconnecting the positive wire to get 12v from it). Got the genny running and all batteries are getting recharged. Now I'm in monitoring mode and trying to come up with best plan of action while on a long trip. Sometime later, few hours after the genny was off similar situation. I take out my volt meter and go to test all batteries. Port bank is really loosing charge and shows just above 11v, but stbd bank is over 12v. I reset all solenoid switches and now the volt meter on the control panel is showing the same as my digital meter.

So, the moral of the story is that the way these things are designed to run don't always work. I didn't experiment anymore trying to jumpstart the genny by using the emergency switch, b/c I decided to swap the BT batteries with my port bank (as a short term solution). The BT still works ok since it's used very rarely and the batteries are getting charged anytime the genny is on. As I mentioned earlier, the full set of jumper cables may not be necessary, but make sure to have a spare wire to jump the positive side, when things don't work as they designed.

I'm away from the dock for a long time and having current setup with two grp31 banks feeding the house with nothing on reserve is not acceptable for me, so I need to find a way to maximize my 12VDC supply. I don't want to go crazy here either, so I'm thinking that maybe by making my banks running 3 batteries vs two will be easiest approach.

Just getting used to the 44 Sedan Bridge and have some questions for you veterans.

I noticed a big blue Xantrex battery charger under the stars and what’s labeled as a bow thruster controller next to it.

Is this battery charger just for the bow thruster bank as there is a separate switch on the 120 volt panel for a bow thruster battery charger?

And if so is there another battery charger somewhere on the boat for the port and starboard banks?

Also, does the bow thruster bank get charged by the alternators on the engines or do you leave the charger powered on when running the generator while under way?

On another subject I noticed some irregularities between my port and starboard smart craft readings for the engines and transmissions. I noticed that the port transmission seems to run about 10 – 30 degrees warmer with about 15 – 30 lower psi then the starboard transmission depending on what RPM I’m running. I also noticed that the load on the port engine is about 2 – 10 % higher than the starboard again depending on what RPM I’m running.

I told MarineMax about my concerns and they check it out and said the difference in the readings are because the port transmission has a reverse gear in it to change the rotation of the port propeller in relation to the starboard propeller which makes sense but should I be seeing such a drastic difference in the readings or am I just being paranoid.

I also noticed that the volume of water that comes out the starboard exhaust bypass is much lower then the port and the engine noise is louder vs. the port for which it is barley audible.

The MarineMax service technician told me that is was due to a difference in design between the port and starboard exhausts and that most of the starboard water is being discharged through the underwater exhaust. He checked the impellors and cooling system for any blockages and said everything looked fine.

Looking in the bilge I do see that there is a significant difference in the plumbing for the exhaust systems between the port and starboard engines but I'm wondering if any of you have noticed the same noise/water flow differences between the port and starboard exhausts.

Any information you guys could provide would be appreciated… Thanks!

I have been trouble shooting same water flow issue. Maybe he's right.

Two % higher load on stbd.

bjurkovski said:

...I noticed a big blue Xantrex battery charger under the stars and what’s labeled as a bow thruster controller next to it.

Is this battery charger just for the bow thruster bank as there is a separate switch on the 120 volt panel for a bow thruster battery charger?

And if so is there another battery charger somewhere on the boat for the port and starboard banks?

Also, does the bow thruster bank get charged by the alternators on the engines or do you leave the charger powered on when running the generator while under way?....

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I'll tell you how mine works and I'm pretty sure yours must be very similar.

1. You should see two separate labels on the control panel, one for just battery charger and another for bow thruster battery charger. This means that you have two independent battery chargers. Both of mine are under the stairs in what we call "the laundry room"...LOL......Keep in mind that one of the reasons these are separated is b/c bow thruster is a 24VDC unit, so is the charger.

2. As far as I know the bow thruster battery bank gets charged only when you provide AC source (via shore power or the generator). Since the alternators produce 12VDC they can't charge the 24VDC bank.

By the way, how far to stbd is your boats list? The further, the higher the load differential. Balance your boat and you balance the load.

Hampton said:

By the way, how far to stbd is your boats list? The further, the higher the load differential. Balance your boat and you balance the load.

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Interesting, I haven't thought of that. I read about the balancing issues with this model but I hadn't noticed much of a list on mine. I'll have to check it next time I'm at the dock.

Alex F said:

I'll tell you how mine works and I'm pretty sure yours must be very similar.

1. You should see two separate labels on the control panel, one for just battery charger and another for bow thruster battery charger. This means that you have two independent battery chargers. Both of mine are under the stairs in what we call "the laundry room"...LOL......Keep in mind that one of the reasons these are separated is b/c bow thruster is a 24VDC unit, so is the charger.

2. As far as I know the bow thruster battery bank gets charged only when you provide AC source (via shore power or the generator). Since the alternators produce 12VDC they can't charge the 24VDC bank.

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If this is the case and I wanted to install an inverter couldn't I just replace the bow thruster battery charger with a inverter/charger combo. All the references I see have you installing a separate inverter in the bilge.

I'm not sure why you keep going back to the bow thruster side. It's 24VDC and I would just leave it alone. So this means you have only 4 batteries to work with (the two main banks).

I would be careful here adding an inverter to these banks as, IMO, the boat doesn't have adequate 12VDC power to feed your inverter. What I mean is that of course everything depends on your cruising lifestyle. If you're always plugged in to shore power and cruise on the weekends or occasional longer trip, then you might be fine with the inverter hooked up to the existing banks. However, if you're out for much longer (several days) on the hook or mooring you're running in to a problem where firing up your generator for only for 2-3hrs is simply not enough to keep your batteries charged. So, having an inverter draining more juice out of the batteries will only make the matter worse.

I'll be looking in to improving this side of the house, but preliminary I'm looking at two options:
1. Adding 3rd battery to each bank and make each main bank of 3 batteries vs. 2.
2. Adding separate bank (a pair) to feed the inverter.

While we're on the subject I'll share an observation where I think SR has a design gap when it comes to 12VDC power management. So, say you're on the hook for few days and the genny is shut off after the crew had breakfast and you're out exploring the shore/town for majority of the day. You're thinking that no big deal, you'll be back in the evening and fire up the genny and have it run for about 2-3hrs to recharge the batteries and provide juice to the "house". The problem is that every single light fixture is wired to 12V side. When the crew is back on board and now you just want to kick back, watch some TV and relax for couple of hours when it's dark out, the genny is running but the battery charger can't keep up with your demand. It's trying to give a max boost (the green light is blinking fast) to charge the batteries you drained by being out all day and now you're demanding anywhere between 20-30AMPs b/c you've got all the lighting and other 12V equipment running.

My point regarding the design gap here is that I wish that SR installed few light fixtures on the 110VAC side (I had it on my 320DA and I'm sure other models have them as well). This would help big time to balance the 12V load in similar fashion like they do with dual voltage fridges.

So, keep all this in mind when you're working on your inverter project.

Are you happy with your dual Raymarine E120's? I'm considering upgrading my C120 (port side of helm) with a E120 and replacing my SeaRay Nav system (center of helm) with another E120 on my 2005 420 DB. I have the large Raymarine radar array, so that should work fine with the SeaTalk backbone. My only concern is whether the E120 will fit between the engine guages and how much retrofit will have to be done. I understand the E120 is the same size as the C120, so I will measure the center helm section in the hopes that a E120 will fit.
My other option is to upgrade to a new digital array and the new E125 and use an iPad as a secondary screen. But at more than twice the cost. I don't fish and I would generally not be cruising at night, so I would not be using those extra features avail on the new E125.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Eric,
Aren't the E120's discontinued? I just replaced my C120 with the new E125 Hybrid touch screen this past summer. My other unit is the E 120 which replaced the Searay Navigator. Overall I really like the the unit. My only complaint are the icons for the buoys are not large enough and there is no way (from what I was told) to change them. But the touch screen is great and so easy to move around the charts.... Creating a route is very quick and easy as zooming in and out is much faster than the old generation.

Eric,

The E120 will fit perfectly fine on either side (port and the center). I originally had just C120 in the center, then I added E120 to the port side and finally replaced my C120 with E120. The last swap allowed me to move on to the next level of redundancy and fail-over. I added one more GPS, XM Weather module and the Network Switch. My E120s now work off centralized database and both can show the same data, including radar data and XM Weather.

The short and simple answer to your question is yes (especially for what I paid), I'm happy with my setup. It gives me everything I need and provides great flexibility. In the event one unit starts to act "funny" (as with any computer, nothing is perfect) the other MFD will take over and act as a "Master". It's the greatest thing having dual MFD and when all of a sudden when you're cruising in the ocean for hours one MFD shuts down. Instead of screaming "OMG" you just hit "Acknowledge" button to accept the other unit to take over as the "Master" (if it was a "Slave") showing any data you had available on the unit that went down.

As Steve pointed out, the E classic series are discontinued. So you can only buy them used. There's no question that newest gear will give you more bells and whistles, but that would mean a lot more money, including a need to change to HD radar (your existing radar will not work with newer MFD). So, for the money it'll cost you get dual E120s and the network switch is well worth it, just IMO. Since I've done everything myself the upgrade cost me absolutely minimum. If you'll have a shop to do this, then you might want to price newer gear vs. E series and see if the difference makes sense.

Hope this helps.

Yes, the E120's would be used, but A local marine electronics shop just upgraded a Sea Ray 58 with new E125's and removed two E120's that are in great shape. Total cost of the Two E120's with install around $3000. And, maybe I could get a few bucks for my C120. Total cost for a new E125 and array plus install...probably around $6,000.
Thanks for your input. I will ask about the switch to run either as the master.

Regarding the list and load differential: My boat had 410 pounds of lead chucked under the outboard berth in the guest stateroom. Yes, this was the official "fix" by Sea Ray. Lead blocks. Ok then.

While it did fix the list, it did not change the fact that there was always a 2% load differential between port and starboard. I just learned to deal with it.

Then I sold the boat.

(sorry, I now feel like I have to end all my posts to this thread with that line)

Does anyone know of a broker that would be willing to pull comps on recent 420 DB sales for boats between 2004-2006? Please PM me if you do, thanks.

Scott