Public Believes "Facts" that Don't Happen to Be True

So: What does everyone think of the CatFood Commission report?
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Haven't read, and probably won't read the report. The commission itself is lead by two men, chosen by Barack Obama, whom no one with any sense would ever trust with setting the nation’s priorities.
 
You want to eliminate social security, then fine, but pay me back all of the money which has been withheld, with some interest included. Do not decide you are going to take this money I have currently paid in for 44 years and then tell me too bad, how sad. I do not care if it only amounts to a pitttance of $50,000.00. I could have invested myself and saved on my on, and before someone jumps in about most would not have saved, I am not talking about them. but me and my money. I had no choice with this withholding.

Yep we need an amendment 28, cancel all of congress's retirement from the general fund and put them totally under social security, same medical as everyone else and same cost of living requirements.
 
skibum said:
Here's the #1 problem that I have with your philosophy. "The rich" are American citizens as well as "the poor". Our government should not be targeting ANY individual, or groups of Americans for different treatment under the law or in matters of taxation than any another individual or group. Why the obsession with tearing folks down, and driving an unnecessary wedge between different segments of society? Thinking like yours prevents progress. It turns the goal of becoming successful into the equivalent of earning the scarlet letter.

We should strive to have more "rich" citizens than any other country in the world. We should strive to set up the economic and regulatory conditions so that more "poor" people can educate themselves, get a job, work hard, and then reap the rewards.
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I'm not advocating targeting any segment of society, I'm advocating targeting those who are gaming the system. If your rich or poor and you are gaming the system its wrong. The poor have no lawyers, PR Firms and accountants to cover their misdeeds and the damage they can inflict on the system is minor. The rich on the other hand can and have inflicted almost an unrecoverable blow to our country with their greed. They can just fly someplace else when unemployment hits 30% and the food riots start, the rest of us are stuck here.:smt013
 
If that's the case then why do we hear complaints about "tax cuts for the rich" all the time instead of complaints about "tax cuts for the rich that are gaming the system"?

If that's the case, shouldn't everyone, including the "rich" get an immediate tax cut, and then we can revoke it from anyone that is found to be "gaming" the system afterwards?
 
Pack66Dad said:
They can just fly someplace else when unemployment hits 30% and the food riots start, the rest of us are stuck here.:smt013
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This would only happen under liberal/socialist/Obama policies Look at Greece and France. The only way to make it Fair to all is to make taxation visible and allow businesses to work.

It appears we are all in agreement that we want a better way of life but not in agreement on how to get there. I would and have been auguring, as-well-as others on this forum taking a different course to get there. The policies of the Obama administration have all been tried before and failed...simple truth and fact. So why try them again? eventually the mouse learns not to touch the cheese or he will get a shock.

we need to go back to true Conservative policies and institute Business Friendly environments to attract business and create jobs. Change the Tax Code and Make them visible like with the Fair Tax. And we need to take that Tax power away from the government, as much as possible, and put it into the hands of the people. Abolish the 16th Amendment and etc.

Fiscal conservatism and a Fair-Tax (3% unemployment at worst) Obama/Liberal agenda (30% unemployment and riots at best)

Lastly, Let's just say--even though it will work--let's say a Fair-tax or something similar does not work--at least we would have tried something never tried before. With the Obama/Liberal agenda--It has been tried, we all know it will fail, has failed, and always will fail. Why Try? Seriously, why try this again and again when you know the outcome before you even try.
 
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Pack66Dad said:
I'm not advocating targeting any segment of society, I'm advocating targeting those who are gaming the system. If your rich or poor and you are gaming the system its wrong. The poor have no lawyers, PR Firms and accountants to cover their misdeeds and the damage they can inflict on the system is minor. The rich on the other hand can and have inflicted almost an unrecoverable blow to our country with their greed. They can just fly someplace else when unemployment hits 30% and the food riots start, the rest of us are stuck here.:smt013
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Really? Did you read what you just wrote?

The "wealthy Americans" typically refers to those with incomes above $250K annually. My bet is that there are a fair number of those folks on this very site. You think they are all gaming the system? Really? I think not. I'm sure there are exceptions. But an "unrecoverable blow to our country with their greed" is a pretty powerful statement. Can you back that up? What percentage of all of those taxpayers (that are paying the majority of the taxes today) are gaming the system?

You also write that "The poor have no lawyers, PR Firms and accountants to cover their misdeeds and the damage they can inflict on the system is minor.". For real? Have you looked at the cost of illegals in this country? The welfare fraud? All of the freebies and programs and special dispensations? I'm all for helping out people that need a break. But I'm not keen on continuing to fund them incrementally and indefinitely.

What happened to America being the land of opportunity? You know, work hard, get somewhere. Now it's the land of the opportunistic. Do nothing, get paid, get medical, get education. And if you do work, do so outside the system, pay no taxes, and send your money outside the country. Yea, that'll get us somewhere.

So, yea. I'm with you on focusing on those gaming the system. Or exploiting it. Rich or poor. Let's start by denying any benefits to people that don't even have a legal right to be here to begin with. Then let's focus on people that are defrauding the system because it's easier (and more lucrative) than actually finding work. And sure, let's close some of those loopholes, simplify the tax codes, and give people fewer ways (and fewer reasons) to game the system.

And while we're at it, let's go for Pseudomind's recommendation of rolling back all the special benefits for congress, and let them live with the same laws they are enacting for you and me. Do that, and we won't need term limits...
 
skibum said:
Haven't read, and probably won't read the report. The commission itself is lead by two men, chosen by Barack Obama, whom no one with any sense would ever trust with setting the nation’s priorities.
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If what I have read about the report so far is true, it talks about

(1) cutting social security (means testing benifits; raising retirement age)
(2) cutting medicare
(3) restructuring defense (with an eye to reducing cost)
(4) Tax reform (less deductions; higher rates)

The only *good* thing in the report is that it drives to budget control. The statement I heard is "hitting every third rail out there". Which I suppose it means it is "dead on arrival", and we won't hear a word about it again.

I mean. . .just gauge the reaction above: "It was led by individuals appointed by Obama; therefore the report is not worth reading". I bet there are many people who share (and will promote) that sentiment.
 
comsnark said:
If what I have read about the report so far is true, it talks about

(1) cutting social security (means testing benifits; raising retirement age)
(2) cutting medicare
(3) restructuring defense (with an eye to reducing cost)
(4) Tax reform (less deductions; higher rates)
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Their recommendations are attempted band-aides for the current system and will not work as a whole. It is going to be interesting to see which recommendation President Moubama pushes for. My guess will be the ones that negatively affect us the most so he can push for his agenda.
 
Pack66Dad said:
I'm not advocating targeting any segment of society, I'm advocating targeting those who are gaming the system. If your rich or poor and you are gaming the system its wrong. The poor have no lawyers, PR Firms and accountants to cover their misdeeds and the damage they can inflict on the system is minor. The rich on the other hand can and have inflicted almost an unrecoverable blow to our country with their greed. They can just fly someplace else when unemployment hits 30% and the food riots start, the rest of us are stuck here.:smt013
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The Two most recent example of “gaming the system” that comes to mind happens to be. 1. Google, cut its taxes by $3.1 billion in the last three years,Number 1 on the list of most Liberal Co in America and 2. Sen. John Kerrey, One of the Biggest Liberal Senators in the country and his yacht.


So your problem isn’t just with Republicans, “mean, selfish, greedy people” and the Party that wrecked America, but with the liberals, The Party of “Do as I say not as I do”??
 
Why is it that they always want to cut retirement? How about cutting departments that would save Billions like the Energy Dept. and the Dept. of Education. Stop all subsidies to the Oil Companies and they would start paying fair market value to drilling on Federal land. Then any one with wealth over 1mil they are dropped from SS rolls they would still pay but not receive. Congress and the Senate would be dropped from full pay when they retire and they would go to ½ pay after 20 and then put on the same structure an the military where they would get 2% year increase after 20, that should save a few buck$
 
Daddubo said:
Why is it that they always want to cut retirement? How about cutting departments that would save Billions like the Energy Dept. and the Dept. of Education. Stop all subsidies to the Oil Companies and they would start paying fair market value to drilling on Federal land. Then any one with wealth over 1mil they are dropped from SS rolls they would still pay but not receive. Congress and the Senate would be dropped from full pay when they retire and they would go to ½ pay after 20 and then put on the same structure an the military where they would get 2% year increase after 20, that should save a few buck$
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That actually kind of makes sense..... but the problem is republican politicians don't give a crap about your retirement, only their own.

Look at who they actually represent, the top 2% and multi-national corporations. Not you, not me, not any of the bottom 98%. And just to be fair many democrats are just as bad :smt021 but at least not all are that way.

We (all Americans) need to put our petty bickering aside and team up to get big money, lobbyists and the new "secret" (probably foreign) contributors OUT of our political system.

Once we clean that up we can continue the left-right debate :thumbsup:
 
Holy crup! Are we almost reaching agreement on something? :wow:Nah. . .can't be


Daddubo said:
Why is it that they always want to cut retirement? How about cutting departments that would save Billions like the Energy Dept. and the Dept. of Education. Stop all subsidies to the Oil Companies and they would start paying fair market value to drilling on Federal land.
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BECAUSE. . *elimination* of Energy, Education AND Education (elimination: not cuts) would be inadequate to fill the gap.

And. . isn't unemplyoment and retirement actually two seperate problems?
 
comsnark said:
Holy crup! Are we almost reaching agreement on something? :wow:Nah. . .can't be

BECAUSE. . *elimination* of Energy, Education AND Education (elimination: not cuts) would be inadequate to fill the gap.

Wouldn’t the elimination of these two useless departments save us billions a year which would cut the budget, so less money spent. It would be a good start on shrinking Government

And. . isn't unemplyoment and retirement actually two seperate problems?
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Yes they are to different things retirement is always looked at as a expendable item to be cut or made harder to get because the money has been Pi$$ed away and unemployment they have no problem handing out like candy. I say make retirement easer and that would open up more jobs hence less unemployment. When things get better welfare needs to be made harder to get to force the able bodied people to go out and find jobs
So less drain on the economy and more taxes collected.
 
comsnark said:
If what I have read about the report so far is true, it talks about

(1) cutting social security (means testing benifits; raising retirement age)
(2) cutting medicare
(3) restructuring defense (with an eye to reducing cost)
(4) Tax reform (less deductions; higher rates)

The only *good* thing in the report is that it drives to budget control. The statement I heard is "hitting every third rail out there". Which I suppose it means it is "dead on arrival", and we won't hear a word about it again.

I mean. . .just gauge the reaction above: "It was led by individuals appointed by Obama; therefore the report is not worth reading". I bet there are many people who share (and will promote) that sentiment.
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Just look at the 4 recommendations listed. If you had asked me 6 months ago to write the top 5 things that any panel run by anyone associated with the Democrat party would come up to "fix" the economy on the back of an envelope, I would have had all 4 of those items in there. #5 would have been amnestry for illegals. That's probably in there too, just buried deep in the report.

So yeah... Why read the report when you already know what it contains? Liberal policies allowed to run their full course have always failed. You see it in history over and over and over. Greece and France are going through it right now. Just watch and see what our destiny will be if we don't change course and fast. Was there really any chance in the world that that report would contain anything different?

Reading the report would be like reading yesterday's weather report. No new information...
 
Pack66Dad said:
That actually kind of makes sense..... but the problem is republican politicians don't give a crap about your retirement, only their own.
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Hence, the crux of the problem. MY retirement is up to ME to plan, and for no one else to interfere with. I don't want the government planning, running, or worrying about MY retirement. Let me keep what I earn while I am earning it, and I will retire with a paid off house, car, boat, and enough assets to live off of until I die.

SS was really the first step in breaking the economy. People need the cash in hand during their 20s-40s to be able to build their lives. They should control all of their money, and decide how much to live on, how much for the kids to go to college, and how much to save. We start stealing money out of their paychecks when they need it the most.
 
Am I the only one, with a rural Michigan education from the 60's/70's, that got the memo that social security should NOT be one's "retirement" program?" I could have swore there was a big push in the 80's (and continuing today) with 401(k) plans, etc where everyone was told to "plan for retirement." Now 30 years later people are saying that their sole retirement is SS? Hello? HELLO?! Did you pay attention to anything the last 30 years or were you all smoking the curtains? If you take all the payments for SS you put in and put in a reasonable rate of return tied to the applicable federal rate, then you should only be expecting a few hundred bucks a month... Enough for a can of SPAM or two every month... anything over that is a ponzi scheme... wake up America....
 
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