Found another water leak in my 260DA

Well, I've been struggling with finding the source of a large amount of water leaking into my bilge every time I go out lately. Last time out, I noticed things were very wet around the hoses to the through hulls on either side in the bilge. So back on the trailer here in the yard I went searching for the source with a hose. To my shock, the hull joint at the rub rail has pulled apart at the aft quarter on both sides. Put the hose to it and water gushes up in and over the hull into the bilge. Generally in the area over the through hulls. In order to see the gap, you have to get low and look up. Sure enough the top side is flapping loose against the bottom hull.

Shortly after taking delivery 2-1/2 years ago on this boat I had the same issue on a 10' stretch on the forward port side under and forward of the port windows.

Now it's in about a 4' stretch on each side aft. What a pain in the but :smt021

This better get covered by the Passport extended warranty. But why can't these joints hold up?

Can trailering the boat be a cause? In my mind it shouldn't matter. These things should hold like a rock!!!!:smt013:smt013:smt013:smt013

It's hard to see, but in the attached picture (between the red lines) the rub rail and top side is pulled away about a 1/2" from the hull.


UPDATE: 6/29/09 - Dealer Inspection.
http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?p=238065#post238065

UPDATE: 7/9/09 - Dealer will dismantle and inspect the joint on 7/31/09 when we finish vacation. Then I will know more. The dealer is even airing the expectation on my part that SR may want this back at a plant for repairs. That would be interesting...

UPDATE: 8/1/09 - Yesterday she went into service and they took off the rub rail to investigate the problem. It didn't take long, the problem was obvious. According to the tech, many of the screws used to fasten the hull joint together were of a smaller size than most, too small for the holes bored, and none of them had been put in with sealant. So the screws have let go, many stripped out of their hole, some just worked loose. The dealer is now sending the info and a proposed fix off to SR for approval. The dealer wants to rebore the holes, use the correct larger screws, install them with sealant and put a bead of 5200 in between. We'll see what SR counters with. They estimate 20 hours of labor to redo this correctly.

Note that the spacing between screws is about every 12" for the initial hull to hull fastening. Then when the rubber piece of the rub rail is screwed on, that is done at a 12" spacing on the 6" offset from the first set of screws to yield a 6" spacing for fastening the hull joint. Then the stainless piece of the rail is added with smaller screws. But if you don't use the correct size screw for the hole you bored which is long enough to penetrate and don't use sealant to hold the screw in, this happens. Shame on SR for what appears to be a total lack of quality control on this process. :smt021 BTW - my serial number on the hull begins with SERR, which denotes the Riverview, TN plant as to where the boat was built.

Some pics;

Where the screws have let go, the caulking has let go as well, allowing water to splash up between and into the boat.



Screw working it's way out.



Loose screws and a complete separation of the joint.


UPDATE: 8/5/09
SR has approved the dealer's plan to fix. Can't wait to get her back in the water.

FINAL UPDATE: 8/19/09
I picked up the boat today. Looks great, just hope the fix is final. From the inside of the bilge area, I can see where the 5200 oozed up in the joint between the hulls.

Your boat has a 5 year hull structural warranty (Sea Ray, not Passport). Check with you're dealer as to whether or not it's covered. Passport is typically for mechanical things (at least that's the way we use it - maybe there are other packages that we don't use).

Lazy Daze said:

Your boat has a 5 year hull structural warranty (Sea Ray, not Passport). Check with you're dealer as to whether or not it's covered. Passport is typically for mechanical things (at least that's the way we use it - maybe there are other packages that we don't use).

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Thanks, so it sounds like I need to make sure this is classified as structural..

Does this happen much? Or am I just having a bad experience?

It's certainly not a common thing. Sorry to hear that you're having this problem, Chuck.

A number of years ago, I read a newspaper story about a Bayliner where the top deck actually separated from the hull while it was being used! It flew off like a shoe box lid! I don't think you'll have that problem, though:smt101

The hull-to-deck joint is indeed structural, and don't let anyone at SR bullsh** you by telling you it's not.
Once it starts coming apart the repeated flexing of the hull to the deck cap will only make it worse.

On better quality boats, this joint is through-bolted- and some builders take it even further by glassing over the joint from the inside. It's what holds the two piece hull together when the going gets rough. SR and many other builders simply screw this joint together as part of attaching the rubrail, with a wood strip on the inside for the screws to grab.

There shouldn't be much of a gap. If there is, it's going to be very difficult to get the repair to hold if they just run screws through it. They should use a structural filler or bonding putty to fill any large gaps.

Lazy Daze - thanks, maybe that's what happened in that prototype SR that has a running thread now.

tobnpr - thanks, yeah I've heard about through bolting this on other bolts. It is surprising SR doesn't. What would it cost them on a 100k boat like mine? $50 at time of manufacture. Terrible.

Have you checked that joint in the bilge as well? If it's separating possibly it is visible there as well.
The rub rail moulding itself does not have to lie flush from my experience so are you sure the joint is seperating? It may be just a sealant issue.

All that being said, I have always had water get into my (normally dry) bilge for no good reason whenever I have a lot of people on board or after doing a lot of sharp turns on the lake such as pulling a tube.

Now you have me wondering so you know what I will be trying to check out this weekend. Please keep all of us updated on what you find out further on this problem.

To be honest, if the hull to deck joint is done correctly, screws and through bolts aren't even needed. The hull to deck joint is epoxy bonded and actually creates a better/stronger joint than through bolting (kind of like a good weld)... assuming they actually used the epoxy, of course!:smt001

However, it would be a hard sell to convince someone that physical fasteners aren't needed - something about "teaching an old dog new tricks", you know?

Dave S said:

Have you checked that joint in the bilge as well? If it's separating possibly it is visible there as well.
The rub rail moulding itself does not have to lie flush from my experience so are you sure the joint is seperating? It may be just a sealant issue.

All that being said, I have always had water get into my (normally dry) bilge for no good reason whenever I have a lot of people on board or after doing a lot of sharp turns on the lake such as pulling a tube.

Now you have me wondering so you know what I will be trying to check out this weekend. Please keep all of us updated on what you find out further on this problem.

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Dave, on the starboard side inside the bilge over the batteries, when the hose was outside shooting up under the rub rail I can see the water bubbling in up and over the hull and down the freeboard into the bilge. I can stick my finger part way into the gap.

On the outside, the underside of the rub rail goes from tight along the lower hull to a 1/2" gap over the problem areas. Likewise, if I push on the rub rail at the problem areas the top side flexes quite easily, where as at other non-problematic areas its stiff as a rock.

If I could get my head over there I'd see daylight. :smt013

You can do the same even with the boat in the water at the dock. Look under the rub rail (may get your head wet) and see if any gaps. If so, have someone shoot the hose water into those gaps and watch from the bilge. No sea trial needed.

You have every right to be pissed. I know I would be and would demand immediate satisfaction and a proper repair from the dealer. I would want to take the piece off and start the application all over to be sure it was done right.

Get on your dealer and Sea Ray and don't let up, summer is to short to waste with your boat in the shop. You bought the boat and they need to make this right, these manufactures and dealers need to realize this is "Fun Money" and customer satisfaction is king.

I know a guy who's mid 90's Sundancer turned yellowish after 3 seasons. He went to the dealer and they tried cleaning buffing it ect, Sea Ray ended up giving him 100% of his original sale price + sales tax towards an equal or bigger boat.
He just did'nt let up or take any BS.

I am not saying be a jerk, but if you are like me you work very hard for your money and deserve to be treated accordingly.

ChuckW said:

On the outside, the underside of the rub rail goes from tight along the lower hull to a 1/2" gap over the problem areas. Likewise, if I push on the rub rail at the problem areas the top side flexes quite easily, where as at other non-problematic areas its stiff as a rock.

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Chuck

That does sound serious if you get flex in the upper deck. I am going to check mine out and I'll let you know if I find anything on mine. Do you know how Sea Ray seals and attaches the upper and lower decks together? I would hope it is more than just the stainless screws thru the rub rail.

Dave

Dave S said:

Chuck

That does sound serious if you get flex in the upper deck. I am going to check mine out and I'll let you know if I find anything on mine. Do you know how Sea Ray seals and attaches the upper and lower decks together? I would hope it is more than just the stainless screws thru the rub rail.

Dave

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I'm not sure at this point. However, according to Lazy Daze:

Lazy Daze said:

To be honest, if the hull to deck joint is done correctly, screws and through bolts aren't even needed. The hull to deck joint is epoxy bonded and actually creates a better/stronger joint than through bolting (kind of like a good weld)... assuming they actually used the epoxy, of course!:smt001

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At this point I'm not going to let this get in the way of my 4th of July plans in Sarasota FL. I'm thinking I'll just put some plastic shrink wrap tape over the voids to keep the splashing water from filling my bilge. Then let them haul and fix after the 4th. I can't see this being a problem, unless I want to take on 10' seas, which I won't.

ChuckW said:

At this point I'm not going to let this get in the way of my 4th of July plans in Sarasota FL. I'm thinking I'll just put some plastic shrink wrap tape over the voids to keep the splashing water from filling my bilge. Then let them haul and fix after the 4th. I can't see this being a problem, unless I want to take on 10' seas, which I won't.

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Chuck

Absolutely.........enjoy the boat for now. :thumbsup:

And since my curiousity is getting the better of me, I'll also try and get some answers on how the top and bottom halves are sealed and held together on our 260DAs and will let you know if I find out anything.

Dave

ChuckW said:

At this point I'm not going to let this get in the way of my 4th of July plans in Sarasota FL. I'm thinking I'll just put some plastic shrink wrap tape over the voids to keep the splashing water from filling my bilge. Then let them haul and fix after the 4th. I can't see this being a problem, unless I want to take on 10' seas, which I won't.

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Chuck,

I don't know if you can get it in blue, but sail repair tape is the thing to use, it sticks to anything, is waterproof, and will withstand UV. A friend's boat was hit by another boat a couple of years ago mid season. The surveyor for his insurance co suggest he cover the holes up with sail tape and use the boat for the rest of the season. The tape worked out well keeping the water out and staying in place. He did have a white hull, so it blended in pretty well. ( As for the "tape it and use it" advice, it was a good call because the parts were ordered in August, but work didn't begin until Oct.)

Henry

Henry and Dave, thanks. Gotta luv this... buy a 100k boat and use mariner's duct tape to keep her afloat :smt021

Maybe next time I'll buy a 2 yr old boat and let someone else deal with all this BS.

Not that sail repair tape isn't the better choice (it is), but shrink tape will be very adequate. I'm only mentioning this because if you already have the shrink tape, save yourself a couple of bucks and don't go out and buy the sail tape.

Looks like you're not going to, but don't let it ruin your weekend - try to forget about it and have fun:smt001

ChuckW said:

Henry and Dave, thanks. Gotta luv this... buy a 100k boat and use mariner's duct tape to keep her afloat :smt021

Maybe next time I'll buy a 2 yr old boat and let someone else deal with all this BS.

Click to expand...

Well, this is concerning for me as well. I am still taking on water. Just brought her home from Sea Ray for a stuck thermostat and had the shop run her out on the water. They stated that they had no water issue. They stated they cleaned the bildge after they brought it in. I asked why because I brought her in very clean. I mean I even clean under the engine. It was white as snow when I brought her in. Tech stated it was dirty when they brought it in. Was it from water?

I will take a look as well when I get home tomorrow from Vegas.

Chuck

From what I have been able to find out, the upper deck is attached to the hull itself with screws. It is not epoxied together and may or may not be sealed with caulking depending on the gap between the two halves.

Chuck, when they pull your center rub rail molding off to find your leak, could you get some pictures of that joint area and post them for us? I am assuming mine leaks there too under certain circumstances and I will probably ask my dealer about fixing it. I am guessing because of the low sheer line in the back, the 260DA is probably prone to having water spray directly at that sheer line center molding under various circumstances.

Dave